Max Ottignon: Everyone Wins

Max Ottignon is co-founder of Ragged Edge, a branding agency that has spent 18 years helping businesses clarify their message and communicate it in ways that get noticed. In his view, campaigns mean nothing without clarity about the underlying brand. In this episode, he joins Jenn and Harriet Richardson (Re:Co's Creative Director) to discuss why sustainability messaging fails when it’s framed as compromise and how purpose creates durable brands.

Useful Links:

• Follow Max on LinkedIn here
• Find out more about Ragged Edge here
• Read Max’s book recommendation: Careless People: A Story of Where I Used to Work by Sarah Wynn-Williams

Click here for the episode web page. This episode is also available on YouTube.

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This podcast is brought to you by Re:Co, a tech-powered advisory company helping private market investors pursue sustainability objectives and value creation in tandem. 

Produced by Chris Attaway

Artwork by Harriet Richardson

Music by Cody Martin

Transcript

[00:00:00] JENN: Max Ottignon is the co-founder of Rugged Edge, a branding agency based in London, both clients around the world. It's an agency that refuses to settle for average and has recently celebrated its 18th birthday Max. Welcome to the Future in Sound podcast. Hey, 

[00:00:20] MAX: thanks for having me.

[00:00:27] JENN: Why don't we start with a bit of your background, max? Can you tell us a bit about what led you to co-found Reed Edge? 

[00:00:35] MAX: Yeah, so when I started my career back in the early two thousands, I was working for, um, an ad agency and I entered a thinking that I was gonna join this sort of incredibly glamorous, incredibly creative environment.

[00:00:52] MAX: And it couldn't have been more opposite like it was. Very bureaucratic. It was slow. Um, I wasn't even allowed to talk to the creative people who were on another floor. Um, and that kind of put me off. Um, and I ended up leaving with no job to go to, which, uh, was probably pretty stupid, but gives you a sense of how desperate I was to get out of that.

[00:01:17] MAX: And everything I've done since has been like a reaction. To that. And so I still felt like I had something to contribute in the creative industry, but it felt to me that advertising, which is all about like campaigns and, and communication, was kind of nothing without clarity about the underlying brand.

[00:01:37] MAX: So a clear idea of what the business was for, um, and what the point of it was and how you're gonna tell that story. And then also, uh, trying to create a, um, an agency that was a nice place to work, uh, and was fulfilling and rewarding and was based on like delivering creative excellence rather than just like efficiency.

[00:01:57] MAX: Uh, which is what the sort of big network agencies tended to do. 

[00:02:01] JENN: Right. I really hear that, you know, focusing on what businesses are for and the point of businesses is at the core of what you stood to create. Is that right? 

[00:02:10] MAX: Yeah, absolutely. Like advertising. If you don't, if you're not clear on that stuff, advertising can be really short term and really empty, uh, and thus ineffective in the long term.

[00:02:19] MAX: Whereas I think what really excited me with brand was you can help companies. Particularly like founders really clarify what they're trying to do. And you can make an impact, not just on what the brand looks like, um, but on the, the whole business, like internally in terms of culture, in terms of product development, and then in terms of how it frames what it's trying to do to the outside world.

[00:02:44] JENN: And Rugged Edge, edge talks about building brands that challenge the status quo. I'm really interested. What does that look like for you? 

[00:02:54] MAX: Yeah, well, I think. Again, something I learned, uh, in my short lived advertising career is that most people don't care about brands. Most brands, most advertising, most communication gets ignored.

[00:03:05] MAX: And even if it gets noticed, it probably gets forgotten pretty quickly. So if you're gonna create a brand that people notice and brands get noticed, tend to get remembered, uh, brands that get remembered tend to get chosen. So like first thing you have to do is get noticed. To do that, you have to. Figure out a way to show up in a way that's different to everybody else.

[00:03:29] MAX: So essentially you have to stand out. In order to do that, you have to make decisions that might feel a little bit scary, a little bit counterintuitive sometimes, but if, if they're made for the right reasons and, um, executed in the right way can be incredibly effective. And most really strong brands have at some point in their lifespan, made those difficult decisions.

[00:03:52] MAX: Uh, and so the whole point of ragged edge is to help. Businesses do that in a way that's really strategic and really effective. 

[00:03:59] JENN: Sounds like there's a bit of a therapist slash uh, branding, uh, agency in in your work Max. 

[00:04:05] MAX: There is a lot of that. Yes. 

[00:04:06] JENN: Helping your clients to understand their fears and maybe overcome them with a bit of bravery.

[00:04:11] MAX: That's it. Yeah, that's a huge part of it. 

[00:04:13] JENN: Yeah. And I'm wondering, and just obviously Rico being quite focused on sustainability and ethics. Hearing about being noticed and remembered and ultimately chosen, but with a long-term strategy. I'm just wondering, when you help clients to navigate this kind of, um, thinking, how does that tie into sustainability and ethics?

[00:04:34] MAX: Good question. Uh, and obviously it very much depends on the brand, uh, and the organizations. I think we generally are looking for. Businesses that are looking to drive some sort of change in the world. And we like companies that are doing that for, for, for good reason, uh, and for positive reasons. And I think one of the best experiences I've had at Ragged Edge, and one of the ones that really sort of helped launch us, uh, is a business, uh, particularly amongst the sort of fast growth like startup community in the earlier days was working with clean energy companies.

[00:05:08] MAX: So, so Bowl, which, uh, had a bit of a notorious end, so the consumer energy startup, but. What was amazing about that was learning how to frame a proposition that had sustainability at the heart. So the whole point of, of, of bulb was it was, uh, they were trying to deliver clean energy, um, and get people using, uh, clean energy at scale.

[00:05:34] MAX: The way to do that was they needed to sort of break into the, the big six of the, um, energy companies. And I think at the time. The traditional way of doing that would be to really go big on their green credentials. And like you could imagine a world in which, you know, everything they said was about going green and, and, and, and that you could imagine that the brand color would be green and the whole messaging would be really focused on that.

[00:06:00] MAX: I think what they were smart enough to realize and what obviously we were part of at the time was that was never gonna be more than a niche play. Uh, and it would attract people that were really. Wanted, already wanted, uh, to be more sustainable, but their vision was much bigger than that. And I think lots of the sort of companies that are really gonna make a difference, uh, in terms of climate tech and, and sustainability need to have, need to go beyond those kind of early adopters.

[00:06:28] MAX: And so what Bo did really cleverly was they used the clean energy and the sustainability as a, as a proof point. But the, the main message. Was just as much about simplicity and saving money, uh, and the overarching tone and idea of the brand. We had this idea that drove everything was was positive energy.

[00:06:53] MAX: So it was just this, in this sort of category where, you know, people like British Gas and N Power and people like that are just like relentlessly, like negative, boring, almost like attacks behave as a, almost like attacks. Like we, we managed to frame reframe bulb as this like force of positivity. And as I say, there was a, you know, it didn't end particularly well for sort of reasons that were largely out of their control, but.

[00:07:19] MAX: In the time between them founding, they were the, the fastest growing, regularly, the fastest growing company in Europe, uh, and certainly the fastest growing consumer energy brand. And they did it not just by focusing on sustainability, but that sustainability was Bit, was sort of everywhere, but kind of beneath the surface.

[00:07:37] JENN: It's really interesting to hear that story because I think what we're seeing at the moment, you know, Ricoh working with private equity investors who. Have seen the zeitgeist shift to a certain extent on sustainability. So going from, you know, sustainability is at the core of everything we do to almost this green hushing phenomenon where investors and in some cases portfolio companies that are operating, you know, more heavily in North America or the United States.

[00:08:08] JENN: Are doing decarbonization work, but not really speaking about it. And one of the things that's really interesting about the example that you just shared is that sustainability wasn't the whole focus of the message. It was part of it. Really staying focused on, uh, saving customers money had to be integral to the message.

[00:08:31] JENN: And I'm just wondering if you have any, you know, comments given that a lot of our clients are navigating this almost black and white phenomena of we talk about it or we don't. Is there a middle way that can help to increase. A competitive advantage get noticed, but maybe not two sides necessarily.

[00:08:51] MAX: That's a real challenge at the moment, isn't it? And particularly because so much of this stuff has become so politicized, uh, as well, and like ludicrously, politic, politicized. And so I think most people, if you ask them like they want to make it, want to be able to make a difference and they wanna make, be able to make choices that are good for the environment.

[00:09:08] MAX: But most people. Or at least the majority of people, you know, care about the environment, they're concerned about climate challenges and you wanna make a difference. But on a day-to-day basis, most people are short term and selfish. And when you actually look at their choices, um, they make certainly on a day-to-day basis, they tend to, yeah, be focused on, is this gonna make my life easier?

[00:09:34] MAX: Is it gonna make my life better in the short term? Will it save me money? Is it better than the. Comparatively priced products over there, like regardless of green credentials or sustainability credentials. So you kind of have to win that argument first and you have to present a better solution to the consumer.

[00:09:53] MAX: And then you can use the, the sustainability stuff as a reason to relieve and as something. That gives that credibility and that gives it that additional weight. I think relying on sustainability as the main message and sometimes limit things because people will often, if you are relying on that as your primary message, people might.

[00:10:15] MAX: Perceive that as well, I'm gonna have to make a compromise elsewhere. Mm. And so I think that is probably the challenge, um, of so much of the messaging around sustainability isn't It, is it's often been around compromise. Mm-hmm. And people don't like to compromise. 

[00:10:30] JENN: Right. And, and when you are talking to clients, say, well, let's, let's have a, let's imagine a scenario you're talking to a client.

[00:10:39] JENN: A secondary message is sustainability related, but the core message is, you know, we're gonna improve your cybersecurity or we're, you know, um, and we're gonna do it with less energy, or we're gonna, you know, you can imagine this, uh, primary and secondary message. And they're a little tentative about the secondary message and they sort of, well, there's all this noise and these headlines.

[00:11:02] JENN: You know, governments aren't as much a fan of sustainability these days. Like how, what would you say to that executive who's making the call of how to communicate, they've communicated sustainability in the past, they're now sort of wondering, uh, is this, should we continue with this? Like how would you coach a client who's in that situation?

[00:11:21] MAX: It's a great question. Um. What we've always believed, and I, and, and all the research that I've ever done and been exposed to in branding, is that you have to focus on what makes you different, because that's the thing that's gonna get you noticed and, and, and remembered. And so if the sustainability part of your products and your offer is something that can help differentiate you, that's gonna be a huge advantage, even if it may.

[00:11:49] MAX: Actually, if framed in the wrong way, like alienate a portion of of people, it's also gonna help me get noticed by the right people. Um, but I think it's how you, how you frame it, uh, and how you position it and obviously making that the headline and, um, shouting about it and becoming a brand that is about sustainability, carries with it.

[00:12:11] MAX: Certain subtext, and at the moment I, I can understand, I can kind of understand why people might shy away from that, but if it is as a credible reason to believe, then I think it, it, it kind of makes that a bit harder to argue against, doesn't it?

[00:12:30] JENN: Hey, it's Jen. I just wanted to take a quick moment to let you know a bit about Ricoh and what we do. We're a tech enabled advisory firm that helps private market investors and companies measure sustainability metrics using our software platform. We also help you to set targets and focus your efforts on sustainability areas that really matter for your business.

[00:12:52] JENN: And finally, we help clients to translate all of this work into your core value creation strategy or your business model. Check us out@re.co.com to get in touch. All right, now back to our conversation. We can't have this conversation without bringing in. Our very own creative director, Harriet Richardson, the woman behind naming Rico, the woman who ha does all of our branding and makes us, I personally, I'm a bit biased, but I think makes us look fantastic.

[00:13:26] JENN: Harriet is joining me to help guide this conversation. Can I hand it over to you, Harriet? Just, I'm really interested to, you know. Get Max's point of view on the future and how we think about the future in branding. 

[00:13:38] HARRIET: Yes. I'm bursting. There's so many that have, and I think it's been so insightful already because I love how you talk about, um, being realistic in what people are going to listen to and identify with, you know, uh, over sort of, yes, you can have this like beautiful message, but if.

[00:13:57] HARRIET: If something's cheaper or something's more convenient, they're probably gonna do that. And I, I find your, yeah. The fact that you are sort of. Based in realism, really refreshing. Um, I wonder, basically my question is how, and I know that's, um, that's a big one, but I obviously have experience in working with clients and in branding, and I just wonder if you'd be kind enough to share a little bit more about how you, um, approach future proofing a brand, not just visually, but socially and environmentally too.

[00:14:31] HARRIET: Sorry. I know that's quite a big question. 

[00:14:33] MAX: Yeah, it's a big question, isn't it? How, how do we future proof it? Um, businesses and products are complex, but people respond to simplicity. And so what we are always looking to do is distill complexity, uh, into a really like simple, clear, single-minded idea. Uh, and then bring that to, to bring that to life in the brand, uh, in a way that has got flex and nuance.

[00:15:02] MAX: So every brand has to work across loads and loads of different channels. And so you need to optimize the brand to work across, um, uh, things like comms and campaigns through to more like performance messaging through to how do you speak to investors, to how do you speak to interns, like employees and things like that.

[00:15:20] MAX: So, but also. Businesses change, particularly growth businesses, um, and particularly in this sort of sector that we're talking about change very quickly. So you have to be thinking about the future and what you want to achieve, uh, and that you need to build something that's, that's gonna be true to that future goal as much as it is to right now.

[00:15:41] MAX: And I think, again, in this, uh, in this sort of space, the other thing that's changing very quickly is culture, uh, and technology as well. Um, so you have to be really aware of where you believe. This is gonna go and be thinking about the future, uh, as much as you are about the present. That discipline is the whole game.

[00:16:02] MAX: Uh, and it's about like, how can we create something and then really commit to it? And basically brand, we always say that like brand is really a commitment. 

[00:16:11] HARRIET: Yeah. 

[00:16:11] MAX: And you have to really believe it in your heart because you're gonna have to live it over time. 

[00:16:16] HARRIET: I think that's exactly right. And one of the biggest learnings I had when I started in design was clients often, I suppose, think that you are getting just a logo or just a color palette or you know, like they just want the sort of, um, brand guidelines, but it's so much more emotional than that.

[00:16:32] HARRIET: I think it's so much more to do with longevity and, you know, what, where do you want to be in five or 10 years and will it last? And I think, um, in my opinion, good design is, you know, timeless and. What that means, I suppose with the rise, like you said, of AI and culture change and it's so fast. I think it's a really interesting space to be in, but I think Ragged Edge seem to be at the front of that, so it's very exciting.

[00:16:57] HARRIET: And I wonder as well, a about, and I know we've spoken about this, you know, um, offline when we, when we met, but I, I wonder what your opinion is of the role that designers play, I suppose, in responsibility to creating sustainable design and into guiding clients into those decisions. Because I suppose, you know, there's really only so much we can do as.

[00:17:21] HARRIET: Uh, you know, you are being sort of, um, almost employed, I suppose, by the client, uh, to a degree. So what sort of responsibility do you feel personally and as a brand to, you know, help guide projects into a more sustainable space? 

[00:17:38] MAX: It is hard, isn't it? And um, it's easy to be idealistic about this stuff until you get confronted with the reality.

[00:17:45] MAX: Uh, and as an agency or as a freelancer or, or, or somebody working for a, you know, branding company or in a, in a bigger company, you do have to work with the reality, uh, not the way that you wish the world was. I think we like at Ragged Edge, just because we've been around a bit and we've built a, a pretty good reputation, we're able to.

[00:18:07] MAX: I think the, the first decision comes in who you work with, and we are able, and are very, very intentional about like, choosing clients. Um, and one of the rea, one of the main criteria for that is are they talking to talk or are they walking the walk? Um, and for a brand, like before you even get into like the ethical nature of it, for a brand to be effective.

[00:18:36] MAX: There needs to be some substance to it. Um, it can't just be bullshit. And so we're always looking for, for that. Uh, and of course, you know, for us it's about we wanna work with people that like every, like everybody, most people in this space anyway, uh, want to do, which is you wanna work for people that are gonna create some sort of positive outcome for the world.

[00:18:56] MAX: Once you find those people. It's much easier because you've got, you're aligned. Um, and so the real challenge, um, and it's, I think it's often unwinnable, sadly, um, is when you are, you are working for somebody who doesn't believe in those things. Like, as a designer, you are only gonna be able to have a limited Im impact on those people.

[00:19:18] MAX: Um, is the, the sad fact of it, I think, and what you often, what often I believe ends up happening is you might have an impact in that. You can change the way they communicate, but not the way they behave. 

[00:19:28] HARRIET: Right. And do you, do you think you can tell quite quickly when you meet someone, whether or not, what, what's your meter like when you, um, 

[00:19:35] MAX: meet?

[00:19:36] MAX: I think it's got pretty, my bullshit radars got pretty, pretty decent over that. I've done this for a while now. 

[00:19:42] HARRIET: It's trusting your gut, isn't it? I think we can apply that to every facet of life. 

[00:19:47] JENN: I also think that there's something here about purpose makes branding so much more clear and durable. It's really interesting to listen to this and Harriet, great questions.

[00:19:56] JENN: You know, max, I, I think that we have seen some flip flops, um, on branding. As I said earlier, you know, sustainability is the most important thing. Now we're not talking about it. There's something here about if it truly is a purpose that's embedded in the organization. Then you're more likely to have a durable brand, um, that sort of has buy-in from across the organization.

[00:20:24] JENN: Yes, you'll change the way you communicate to a certain extent, but flip-flopping will be more difficult if you're dealing with a company that sort of has this clear purpose that is about organizing how they operate, not just a tagline or something that's, you know, pasted on the wall of corporate. 

[00:20:45] MAX: Yeah, and I think what we've seen, what we've certainly seen in the past decade is all sorts of a tremendous amount of cynicism, uh, and jumping on bandwagons to exploit the thing that is popular now.

[00:20:57] MAX: And, uh, you know, there was a point at which that was sustainability wasn't there. And then obviously, uh, particularly in the US there was a bit of a backlash to that for me. And what was most disappointing was all the tech CEOs, uh, just like turning on a dime and just like the breathtaking cynicism of that, but.

[00:21:16] MAX: Those companies never believed it. 

[00:21:18] HARRIET: Yeah. 

[00:21:19] MAX: And it was always a formative. Mm-hmm. Uh, and it was always something they did because they felt like they had to, whether that was to retain the best to, to get the best talent or to convince, uh, consumers or get the right press or whatever. But the, the companies that are really walking the walk, it comes through in everything they do.

[00:21:36] MAX: Uh, and it starts right at the top. And to me, that's always the, the real difference. 

[00:21:41] HARRIET: Yeah. It's so interesting to think about the last decade in, you know, with that lens. And that brings me to ask, um, if you could sort of see any shift happen in the next five or 10 years in branding and the branding industry around sustainability and responsibility, what would you like that to be?

[00:22:01] MAX: I think what I'm excited about is the brands that are able to reframe sustainability. As everybody wins. And I think the mistake the industry has often made, um, is to frame it as a compromise. We've been working recently with this really inspiring company out in, in the US called Palmetto, um, which is a clean, a consumer clean, um, tech company.

[00:22:31] MAX: And one of the things they do is like, help, uh, consumers like install like solar. We had some amazing, uh, conversations with them and the CEO. His point of view is I've been working in this industry for a long, long time. The messaging doesn't work. The messaging of compromise doesn't work. We have to do something fundamentally different here if we're gonna get people to change behavior.

[00:22:57] MAX: And for him, uh, and for this brand, um, our meadow, like the, the, the idea was you can have it all. Uh, and actually like clean energy means you don't have to make a compromise. It's, it's, it will end up saving you money. Uh, it will mean you can, you know, plug all, plug in all of your devices at once. Um, and it won't cost the earth, uh, in terms of, um, financially or.

[00:23:21] MAX: In terms of impact on the, on the environment. And so just completely flipping that message of in, into one of abundance, uh, into one of positivity, giving people permission to have everything. We built the whole brand on that, in this case in Palmetto. But I think that's something that I think the whole industry should be doing and trying to frame everything to do with sustainability into a, into a win-win, win, uh, for everybody.

[00:23:46] MAX: And if we can find clever ways of doing that as an industry, I think we'll be in a really good place. It can't be one of compromise. It can't be one of sacrifice. It has to be a positive, optimistic view of the world. 

[00:23:59] HARRIET: It's amazing when you say it like that actually. 'cause I just can't believe that we've ever thought of it as a massive sacrifice to live in.

[00:24:05] HARRIET: It's a world that's more sustainable and we can, you know, have our cake and eat it. I think it's completely possible from, um, you know, even the innovation we've seen in the last, like five or 10 years, and it's so wonderful to know that branding, um, is yeah, grounded in positivity. Why should, why should it not be?

[00:24:22] JENN: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think that that positivity and I think also just honesty where there are trade-offs, like, I mean, being really positive and win, win win like where we can, and then also making sure that we're not saying that it's a win, win-win, win, it's not right. Yeah. There are limitations for sure, max.

[00:24:43] JENN: Like you're not saying that there's no like carbon emissions growing with ai, or do you know it's more just. The focus would be, you know, we're looking to have the lowest carbon AI service. Yeah. And here's what we're do, like, here's the positive side kind of thing. 'cause you need AI to run your business or whatever.

[00:25:00] JENN: It's not, it's sort of focusing where there are win-wins. Yes. And obviously strategies need to acknowledge trade-offs, but that's, that's not what we lead with. 

[00:25:09] MAX: Yeah. You're absolutely right. And obviously this isn't about glossing over negatives, but in order to get people to change behaviors. It is really hard to do that if you're asking them to make compromises.

[00:25:22] MAX: Uh, and we've seen that like time and time again for, you know, for everything. Like small things like recycling, like how hard it is to, you know, make that work. You can't get pe it's really hard to get people to change behaviors if you're asking them to make compromises. So brands and businesses have to figure out ways where it isn't a compromise.

[00:25:40] MAX: And certainly, you know, technology is. At least in lots of different ways. And I appreciate, you know, AI is in some respects potentially not doing that, but lots of technology is, and I think it's just a lot of it is about framing. 

[00:25:55] HARRIET: Mm-hmm. Yeah, completely. Um, I have one more question and I've been so excited to get to this one 'cause it is one.

[00:26:02] HARRIET: Are there any particular books that you've read that have shaped your thinking in regards to creativity, sustainability, romantic, um, fiction, whatever you want? 

[00:26:14] MAX: Um, the books that I really enjoy, like we work a lot in, in in tech, and so, um, I'm always, the, the books that I really enjoy are the ones that like shine a light on, on the decisions that are really being made.

[00:26:28] MAX: There, and there were like a, a lot of like, um, inside accounts, but there were like WeWork and Uber and things like that. That book's super pumped. I, I really, really enjoyed because I think it exposes the, the, the cynicism. 

[00:26:41] HARRIET: Yeah. 

[00:26:42] MAX: Um, at the heart of this stuff and what we're up against. And also the, the, the haphazardness, uh, with which, so, so many of these decisions are made.

[00:26:53] MAX: There's a, um, what's it called? The, the one that, there's one that I'm reading at the moment. It's, uh, God, I've forgotten the name, but about the, um, story about where I used to work. I can't remember the actual title. It's by, it's by the, um, somebody that used to work at, at Facebook, careless people. It's called.

[00:27:09] MAX: And it is fantastic 'cause it just, it, it just shows you what we're up against. It shows that kind of level of cynicism at the heart of, of, of, of tech. But it also to me, shows what the opportunity is as well, which is the, the opposite of that. And um, I find that, you know, both quite terrifying but also quite inspiring.

[00:27:31] MAX: Yeah. 

[00:27:32] HARRIET: I mean, what, you know, terrified me about that book was, I mean, so many, obviously, so many parts of it and it's like, as terrible as you imagine and then double it. Um, but I thought at the core of, you know, you always hope that the core of these massive companies, there's some sort of professionalism.

[00:27:50] HARRIET: Yes. And to hit it isn't that, and it is just, you know, like a frat house of, you know, boys running around doing whatever they want. I think that's the, the most terrifying thing about that book. 

[00:28:00] MAX: It really is. And that that is, you know, I have had that experience with, you know, big tech generally. But what is also interesting is like, it's kind of just, there isn't a plan.

[00:28:12] MAX: And I think what that means is there is an opportunity to help businesses like that form a plan. And when you can do that and really cut through, uh, and I'm not saying we've done it on anything on the scale of like Facebook, no matter, but when we have done that with businesses and help businesses like figure out, okay, this is the point of this business.

[00:28:31] MAX: This is what we really can change, this is how we can make an impact, it's very fulfilling. Very rewarding and hopefully like has a net positive humanity. 

[00:28:42] JENN: Yeah. A real takeaway for me, max, is the importance of, you know, purpose and developing a strong brand so that we're walking the walk, not just talking the talk.

[00:28:53] JENN: Yeah. The need for bravery. That actually it's so easy to follow the herd, but to have a strong brand, you need to really point out what's different and be different. And that requires a certain amount of authenticity and bravery. And then finally, this piece around, you know, there really is an opportunity to look for how can our business have an offering where everybody wins.

[00:29:21] JENN: And if we have this view of like we're walking the walk and talking the talk, then it's sort of a purpose led everybody wins. So really appreciate the insights you've shared with us. Max, I don't know, Harriet, if you had any other 

[00:29:32] HARRIET: reflections. Um, I mean, it's been an inspiring conversation and I'm looking forward to the Ragged Edge meta collab in the future.

[00:29:41] HARRIET: But thank you Max. This has been really, really insightful. Thank you for 

[00:29:44] JENN: joining us Max. 

[00:29:46] MAX: Thanks having me.

[00:29:54] JENN: The Future and Sound Podcast is written and hosted by Jen Wilson and produced by Chris Attaway. This podcast is brought to you by Ricoh, a tech powered advisory company helping private market investors pursue sustainability objectives and value creation in tandem. If you enjoyed this podcast, don't forget to tell a friend about it, and if you have a moment to rate us in your podcast app, we'd really appreciate it.

[00:30:19] JENN: Until next time, thanks for listening.