Future in Sound

Shami Nissan: Shared Value in Practice

• Re:Co • Episode 28

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With over 20 years’ experience in responsible investment, Shami Nissan is a leader in sustainability and impact initiatives. Partner and Head of Sustainability at Actis, she’s also an Advisory Board member of the World Bank/IFC’s Operating Principles for Impact Management, and an Advisory Panel Member of the G7 Impact Taskforce (ITC).

In this episode she discusses the crucial role of collaborative learning in the sustainability sector, the strategic importance of transitional fuels in achieving environmental goals, and the challenges of 'green hushing' within the industry. 

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This podcast is brought to you by Re:Co, a tech-powered advisory company helping private market investors pursue sustainability objectives and value creation in tandem.

Produced by Chris Attaway
Artwork by Harriet Richardson
Music by Cody Martin

SHAMI: It's really important to share what you're doing and what's working because there is no textbook in this industry that tells you what to do or what best practice looks like. It's really important that there is a really open collaborative mindset amongst all practitioners so that we can learn from each other and benefit from kind of collective experience rather than everyone reinvent the wheel and fall into the same kind of traps.

JENN: Welcome to the Future in Sound podcast. I'm your host, Jenn Wilson. This is a podcast where we discuss people, planet, and profit. In each episode, we'll learn from world leading experts who can help us see the future we want. And our role in it.

This is episode 28, shared value in practice.

Shami Nissan is a partner in sustainability at Actis, a leading global investor in sustainable infrastructure. She leads Actis approach to sustainability, ESG, and impact, working closely with investment colleagues and company management to assess and manage ESG issues, Helping build world-class businesses, which are leaders in sustainability and which deliver measurable benefits to society and planet Shami.

I'm just delighted to have you on the Future in Sound podcast. Welcome. 

SHAMI: Thank you so much for having me. 

JENN: I thought we could start with a 60 to 92nd quick introduction on your background and maybe a quick overview on Actis.

SHAMI: Sure. Actis is an investor in infrastructure. We are very focused on sustainability.

So we often talk about sustainable infrastructure. We've raised about 24 billion US dollars since we were created. And our footprint is global, but with a strong emphasis on emerging markets. So in the context of sustainability ESG, that's always very interesting to think about. Large infrastructure in kind of southern hemisphere, global south, raises some interesting challenges, also opportunities.

In terms of me, so I have only ever worked in the field of sustainability. That's what I've done. I have about 25 years of experience. 10 years at Actis this year. Prior to that, I worked for 10 years at PwC in the sustainability advisory business. I've also worked at sustainability ratings agencies.

Previously, I've worked with the United Nations in Central America. And my academic background is a degree in biology and a master's in environmental technology. So that has all kind of come together for this sustainability role today. But at the time I graduated, I don't even think I thought that was a career necessarily.

JENN: It's amazing. And it's actually quite rare in this space, you know, to have a couple of decades of experience to have studied sustainability. I come across a lot of, uh, sustainability professionals who have maybe been in this space for two years, three years. It's really refreshing to speaking with you, Shami, and maybe we'll get into a bit of the history and where the industry is coming from and where it's going to in the future.

So one of the things, I guess, let's start with, you know, where we're coming from and where we are. So when you think about or explain to LPs where PE sort of ESG is at the moment. How do you explain where we've come from and where we are?

SHAMI: Yeah. And I mean, I guess like when I think about PE and infra, I'm going to, my comments are going to, um, kind of encompass both and Actis was very involved in, in kind of private equity specifically during the time that I've been here as well.

Um, look, I think there's been a lot of progress in, in many ways, in the sense that, In recent years, we've seen a huge investment by GPs and asset managers into ESG sustainability teams in house. So 10 years ago, absolutely. For example, 10 years ago, wouldn't have been a given that a PE firm has an in house team. ESG team or sustainability team. Now, I think almost everybody does. And furthermore, it's usually more than one person. And that person is not double padding, which is what we would have seen a while back. You know, maybe they also have kind of other broader responsibilities or it's tagged on to investor relations, et cetera.

So I think we've seen that as a particular kind of trend. I think also with, with the rise of the understanding of the scale, complexity and urgency of climate change, I think there's a much broader understanding in the investment industry, generally speaking, about the risks that that poses. And I think that has helped to kind of accelerate attention on ESG and sustainability.

Uh, so I think there's much more, uh, focus on the carbon. Part of the E in particular now, I think in a European context, we've also had a very strong regulatory push, which has created a kind of non negotiable imperative right for many firms to really get on top of their sustainability work in the context of USFDR and green taxonomy, etc.

So that's been a big driver of the integration agenda. Really focusing on disclosure, reporting, data, and measurement. So I think all of those have been kind of recent trends. Maybe less positively, perhaps, or, or, or to add to some sort of confusion. I guess the other recent trends that we're seeing, you know, we have a anti ESG backlash at the moment that's alive in, in, in North America.

So Which is an interesting dynamic because we're seeing a kind of almost schism in terms of the EU wanting to go ever faster on this and more detailed, more disclosure, more accountability and, and then in, in, in the States, we have this, uh, other movement, which is kind of going in the other direction and that gap is widening and if anything, but at the same time, it's.

Speaking of kind of geographies, we're saying, for example, Asia investors taking ESG much more seriously than, than maybe previously, many more questions from LPs, much more focused on this, in particular decarbonization. So it's not an even picture kind of internationally. Um, and I guess the other trends we've seen is like a real, much greater scrutiny on the greenwashing agenda.

And I suppose as a result of that, some would say green hushing has risen, which is when you continue to do some good things behind closed doors, but you're very careful about not talking about them too loudly. So I think all of these kind of trends are at play at the moment in the market. But. Overall, I think we're, we've, we've moved a long way in PE.

It used to be maybe thought of as kind of like the dark corner of financial services, the late comer to what the global banks have been doing for a while, whether it's Barclays, HSBC, Standard Chartered, etc. But I think that's definitely changed in the last few years.

JENN: It's interesting. I mean, thinking about sort of where we're going, I mean, one of the things that I couldn't help, but think as you were describing greenwashing, we had Georg Kell on the podcast, he wrote the speech for Kofi Annan, which was based the, the basis for the UN global compact.

You're nodding Shami. This is tying to your background at the UN and he was talking about how I asked what was it that really. Made progress happen with the UN global compact because it really, even now, when you look at due diligence questionnaires from LPs, one of the questions is, you know, are you aligned with the UN global compact?

And he said, you know, a really important aspect was sort of that transparency, you know, disclose what you're going to be doing. You may not be there yet, but that really. You say you're going to do X, you tell everybody you're going to do X, and then you sort of feel that accountability. And it strikes me that that gets to the heart of one of the challenges with the backlash on greenwashing, right?

And that green hushing or being afraid to sort of disclose this is what we're going after because it sort of undermines one of the key approaches to motivating progress. I wonder what you think about that.

SHAMI: Yeah, no, I agree. And I've been to several kind of roundtables and gatherings, I suppose, of counterparts or sustainability ESG heads and PE and, and infra and we privately, um, and to some extent publicly sort of bemoan the green hushing, because it stops all of us learning from each other as well.

So, You know, it's really important to share what you're doing and what's working because there is no textbook in this industry that tells you what to do or what best practice looks like. That is being kind of created and recreated and innovated all the time and the bar is getting raised. So it's really important that there is a really open collaborative mindset amongst all practitioners so that we can learn from each other. And benefit from kind of collective experience rather than everyone reinvent the wheel and fall into the same kind of traps. So my experience of this industry is that most of us in this role are really up for collaboration, um, and for sharing for the greater good, so to speak. So the green hushing puts a brake rather than an accelerator on that for everybody. And also for those that are more leaders. You know that there's a need and a desire to advocate to share more publicly, and you don't want to be making decisions around we want to advocate and share this experience but we don't want to, you know, be the tall poppy felled. Yeah, it's unfortunate if you're in a place where you have to have those conversations, but that's slightly where, you know, some organisations are today, but hopefully it will change soon.

JENN: And speaking of that, you know, staying at a high level before we get a little bit deeper into the Actis approach, if we think about, you know, the next five, 10 years, do we think that Like, I guess if I take a step back, we've talked on this podcast about how it took 700 years for gap principles to come to the fore and we are sort of creating the rules as we're using the rules these days on ESG.

So if you think, you know, five, 10 years down the road, do you think we'll still be talking about greenwashing, green hushing, or will it be much more integrated?

SHAMI: I hope it will be more integrated. There's some good progress underway. We have the ISSB, um, work that is going on. We have a much greater focus from all aspects of this industry now on data, disclosure, reporting and measurement.

We're all heading towards audit of those key material, um, data sets. So I think we're going to have a much more sort of sophisticated approach to this agenda. But what stops me from thinking, Jenn, that, like, in five years, everything's going to be perfect. Uh, we're going to have standardised, you know, metrics reporting, uh, materiality assessments, is that the terminology of ESG and sustainability covers a vast array of topics.

And it feels to me like more. Items are being added to that list rather than taken off of it. So there's kind of an ever growing scope creep on what it means to, to, to be thoughtful about ESG and sustainability. So that just makes me kind of pause a little bit around, you know, is it feasible, um, to, to do this work on, on accounting protocols when we're talking about everything from.

Environmental issues, resource efficiency, decarbonisation, pollution, to kind of the whole social sphere around employees and grievances and local communities, labour, rights and supply chain, diversity, equity, inclusion agenda alone is a huge behemoth of a topic. You know, ethics, conduct. It goes on and on.

So there are so many areas to cover and I sometimes feel like I need 10 PhDs just to do this job effectively. So I, I think, um, I think we'll definitely see progress in this regard in 5 years, but I don't think we'll be. Finished with the job yet.

JENN: And on the Infra side, you know, one of the things that we've seen sort of a macro theme leading up to 2000, there was, you know, strong, uh, strong performance in tech stocks, you know, more sort of classically sort of ESG fund kind of stocks, lots of interest, which was very welcomed, you know, in 2020, 2021, 2022, um, And then obviously we know that Ukraine was invaded.

We had, you know, uh, gas prices go through the roof, fossil fuel stocks, uh, started doing, you know, quite well, and that's actually created a really interesting conversation that was pushed forward at COP, I thought, which is when it comes to infrastructure, okay, yes, we're going to need fossil fuels. You know, through the transition to a certain extent, but when it comes to long term investors and infra, you know, how do you see this playing out, you know, the investment and say, you know, gas pipelines versus, you know, renewables, where the growth is going to be, you know, how fast we're going to turn the taps off.

There are so many, like, you know, the, Um, IEA forecasts, you know, change constantly, uh, and there are lots of jokes in the industry about, you know, how, and they are, you know, forecasts are not going to be, uh, perfect, but it's difficult for anybody to predict the future. But how do you see that playing out?

SHAMI: So, I mean, it's a great question and it's a really interesting kind of moment in time, isn't it? Because so much LP capital is looking for transition type investments, energy transition or transition more broadly, it could be circular economy, but that is the mega theme of the day. And You know, we often say it's also the investment opportunity of a lifetime because we have to solve these issues.

Uh, we have the climate change agenda. We have energy, energy security. We've got a growing global population. Again, I'll speak to the global South. 80 percent of the world's population lives there. Um, there is a huge dearth and scarcity of, um, infrastructure for power generation, evacuating the power, that means grids and transmission, and at the same time, you know, we need to make sure that power is as clean, affordable, accessible and reliable as possible for all those citizens and businesses in all of these economies so they can develop.

Gas is interesting, it is less high carbon intensity than coal, and it is available in some markets. We call it an indigenous source, which means that it's available nationally, um, and in many markets, it's not possible to switch a metaphorical switch and go straight from coal or coal and gas to renewables.

The infrastructure is not there, the grid is not able to service or is not fit for purpose in terms of the power that would be generated by the renewables. Kind of assets and the renewables assets tend to be located in more remote areas where the wind is the strongest and the sun is shining the brightest.

So there is a real need to physically connect them to the grid. So there are many challenges in terms of transitioning a country towards a renewables mix and what is going to happen and what should happen on the way there if we think about the need for energy security. Is that gas will be a really viable transition fuel or a bridging fuel to that renewables future.

And in particular, where you know that you're going to displace higher carbon sources. higher carbon intensity sources of power, where you don't have the option of going to renewables and where you have domestic gas, it makes absolute sense to use that as you are building up the net zero type of infrastructure.

So gas will definitely be part of the energy mix for the next few decades. So we, we firmly believe that and know that in our markets. I think for some, this may be a misperception that there is a choice and you can go straight to renewables, but that's not the case in all markets. So there are many discussions around is gas green, etc.

Jenn, as you know, and interestingly, from the EU perspective, they went through this. with the taxonomy, heavy, intense lobbying on both sides, but it was deemed ultimately that gas is green, subject to certain technical thresholds. So look, I think this conversation will kind of, rightly so, like continue to be had, but, but that is my, that is the view that You know that that we have this kind of infrastructure experts and investors, and I believe that patient capital should and generally does understand that certainly our LPS understand this and are supportive of it.

That's not to say that the policy environment is pushing us more towards a fossil free future that goes without saying. But I think there's an understanding that there are stepping stones on the way to getting there.

JENN: Hey, it's Jenn. I just wanted to take a quick moment to let you know a bit about Re:Co and what we do. We're a tech enabled advisory firm that helps private market investors and companies measure sustainability metrics using our software platform. We also help you to set targets and focus your efforts on sustainability areas that really matter for your business.

And finally, we help clients to translate all of this work into your core value creation strategy or your business model. Check us out at reed. co. com to get in touch. All right, now back to our conversation.

Could you walk us, Shami, through, you know, at a high level, your approach going from prospecting, pre investment, portfolio management through to exit?

SHAMI: Yeah, I guess super high level when you talk about prospecting, one thing to share right away is that we talk about investing in solutions to sustainability challenges globally.

So that's one of our kind of North Star questions. Is this investment contributing a solution to a sustainability challenge? Or is it going to be somehow exacerbating or making worse a sustainability challenge? So that's a very kind of super high level filter. And we seek to only invest in sectors that provide sustainability benefits.

So we invest in power generation, mainly renewables. Through our infrastructure business. We also invest, for example, in district cooling. So we've made a recent investment in district cooling in the Middle East and district cooling provides a way more efficient solution for cooling countries in very high temperature, high humidity areas where, frankly, you can't really live, function or work without air conditioning, but it's 30 percent approximately more efficient than using just single units.

So as a sector. Um, compared to the counterfactual. It's really important that we Are investing in district cooling and district heating infrastructure around the world. So just to give you like a different example from power, and we're also investing in real estate and digital infrastructure. And again, those are providing kind of critical services infrastructure and cities countries that really, really need need new stock new buildings.

Digital is super important everywhere as we know today, but in particular in those under penetrated markets so. The very presence and provision of this infrastructure itself is an important service. We sometimes talk about digital as the fourth utility, but we go beyond that after the kind of super high level filter of which sectors.

Thinking about kind of due diligence, to go back to your question, we're very focused on understanding the ES and G opportunities and risks. So a member of the sustainability team is Almost kind of quote unquote embedded into the deal team. So we have that very deliberate strategy. So someone from sustainability becomes part of the deal team and is part of that whole due diligence process that will include site visits.

It will include working with third party ENS G business integrity as well. DD providers. We are assessing the assets, the business, the projects against international standards. Quite often for us, that means IFC performance standards, which are set by IFC slash World Bank. Um, so really detailed diligence.

It includes aspects of the DEI agenda, diversity, equity, inclusion. So we look, we have a checklist on DEI that we ask management teams, and there's a section in our checklist. Investment committee paper that talks to that. We look at physical climate risk every time. Like, what is the resilience of these assets?

We, when you think about infrastructure, it needs to be there for sort of more, you know, two decades. So you need to really be thinking about physical climate risk. And by that, I mean, kind of weather patterns, long term. You know, whether it's acute incidents like an extreme weather event or more chronic changes.

So all of that is part of what we do each time during our due diligence. And we get very detailed because we're typically a majority owner, which is quite important to understand in terms of context for actors. And then we move into value [00:23:00] creation, portfolio management. And we are, again, unsurprisingly, as majority owners get very involved, We're in the trenches with our businesses, our portfolio companies for many of them.

We are helping to hire heads of sustainability, helping to recruit, helping to interview those individuals on board, those individuals. We like for our businesses to have a formal governance forum on sustainability. So they will have a subcommittee sustainability subcommittee that reports to the board that meets quarterly.

Meets prior to the board so that any issues can be raised escalated or tabled for discussion slash approval. So those are really key kind of hallmarks hallmarks of how we. embed and integrate the ESG piece into the value creation. Um, I could talk about this for ages, but I'll just sort of wrap up. I think another important thing that we do with our infrastructure energy businesses is we bring them together once a year in the UK for about three days.

So all the heads of sustainability come together and they never stop sharing and talking. And that is exactly the idea. They're all doing very similar roles, but different companies, different parts of the world. So, um, this really is about a fast track to knowledge exchange, you know, creating a peer to peer learning community, making sure they meet, know each other, you know, your problem today might be mine tomorrow.

It's great to know that I can call you, we can share. So it's really about disseminating best practice as quickly as possible. And that's one of the things as actors, we tried to do. You know, for the benefit of as many portfolio companies as we can. So I see that as one of kind of my main jobs, the team is really there to kind of gather up all our institutional knowledge and share it back as efficiently as possible.

So we do lots of webinars and guidance notes and best practice manuals and those kinds of things.

JENN: How did your time at the UN and actually spending time on the ground in a development context, shape your approach to portfolio management? Now at Actis, it's such a great question.

SHAMI: I think it really made me understand in particular in the context of developing countries is that you cannot succeed unless you have the community behind you, and that coming up with plans for communities in a remote dissociated way where you presume to know what they need and how they're going to solve it is often kind of a plan that's doomed for failure. So I worked on something called the small grants program with the UNDP and the concept there was that the communities themselves submitted applications for the projects that they wanted to see.

So it was very much identify your problem and identify your solution. And working with them made me really kind of understand the risks of You know, somebody at UNHQ in New York or whatever, trying to decide what the right thing for a community to do is in, in, um, I don't know the Mayan region in Guatemala, it doesn't work that way.

So in the context of investing in infrastructure and developing countries, it was, it's really key knowledge because we cannot succeed. To have large scale infrastructure in and around communities in a siloed mentality that we run, operate, and then, you know, exit these assets. Uh, the people that are living in and around these assets are often the workers.

as well, right? So your workers become your community. It's very connected. It's really important to work in partnership. They are your neighbors, your hosts, and there's a strong expectation of shared value, rightly. So there needs to be a mindset right from the beginning around communication, engagement, Being humble, explaining what you're trying to do, really understanding how can we help them so that they really have shared value from this project.

And We shouldn't sort of deem to know the answer to that. We should ask them and work together. So we have some fabulous examples of working successfully with communities and infra investing is sadly littered with examples where that hasn't worked. And projects have come to a standstill or been mothballed or never got off the ground, or suffered from delays interruptions for joining us. And any delay or interruption of any operating asset costs a lot of money on a daily basis. So, you know, we're really proud of our track record and kind of avoiding those types of business risks. So our work with community is both a very commercial de risking. [00:28:00] Strategy, but also it's our vehicle for a kind of delivering positive impact as well.

And we take a huge amount of pride from being able to do that.

JENN: That's really clear. And it's, it's interesting. When we look at regulation, like the CSRD asking for double materiality assessments, this is just such an elegant example of double materiality, where it really comes together. What's material, Material to the community is very much material to the project or the investment, and it really came to life as you're describing it.

Shami, I guess, you know, one of my follow up questions to that, you know, when we talk about the word of the day seems to be value, right? And financial value, shared value at a high level. You and I have talked about this in the past. Um, what are some of the approaches that you take to capturing the value?

SHAMI: Yeah, it's so important to make this link to financial value and um, I think it's never not going to be part of the job of someone that works in sustainability to answer this question, basically, and, and, and it's fair enough. Um, look, I think there's so much that's been done on the link between value and ESG, but the vast majority of it is for public companies and listed companies.

So there's lots of studies and now there's meta studies of the studies of the studies, what there is very little on is research in the context of private markets investing. There is 1 exception, so just to anybody listening to the podcast, Jenn, if they haven't looked at it, I would just kind of signpost the Bain and Ecovadas work that was done last year.

I think it was April 2023. And they did look at 100, 000 companies. 95 percent of those were private, privately owned. That's the kind of the largest recent study that comes to mind in terms of looking at the link between sustainability inside the company. and financial performance. And that study did find that there was a correlation.

And I should say for those new to this, it's always a correlation. We can't talk about causation. We're just nowhere near that place. So there are some studies, but we've certainly asked ourselves many times. You know, is there a framework, a tool that will allow us to kind of capture how much has the work that we've done on sustainability to drive excellence in this portfolio company contributed to exit or IRR uplift or some other measure?

There is no, special magic silver bullet formula that gives you that answer today in the form of a monetary unit. It just doesn't really exist. So, you know, one is faced with several options. There are consultancies out there that provide a kind of top down framework that does some estimating to give you a way to maybe Quantify the value of the sustainability initiatives that you have put in place.

There's a very onerous kind of labor intensive bottom up case study approach that one could take. You could look at your, I don't know, two to five recent investments that you've exited and break down literally what did we do on sustainability on each one and how does that link to value. But if you did do that, it would be interesting but never fully able to be extrapolated for others. Because it would apply to those companies, right? So lots of work, limited extrapolation. And there is an in between ground that some are taking, which is a bit of a hybrid approach, a bit of both. So you can use some proxies. You could say that, gee, I don't know if I have over 30 percent females on my board that equates to You know, added value of X.

So if you meet that 30 percent limit, then you could apply that you've had, you know, you could make an assumption that you've added that. But the point is, there isn't a single way. So the way that I think about it is where it's possible for us to measure it in quantifiable ways. So simple example might be you've, you've Achieved some efficiencies in terms of energy and water and your costs have come down and you can basically calculate that easily.

So we all must must do those calculations where they're easily accessible to us on the other more intangible aspects. Maybe a huge amount of work is done on improving diversity. It's very, very hard to say, you know, we moved the work, the female percentage and workforce from 12 percent to 30 percent or what have you.

How do you decide how much value that's added? It's really difficult. So I really believe in kind of not going for. a number for the sake of it. That's just spurious accuracy, right? And you, you don't do yourself any favors pursuing that avenue. So we measure and report where we can, and otherwise we do report, but it's in more qualitative terms to describe what we've done and why.

JENN: Now look, I could ask lots of follow up questions, but we're coming to time. And so I wanted to ask my final question, which is if you had to choose one book, uh, that's most shaped the way you think, uh, in your work, uh, what book would that be? 

SHAMI: Such a hard question. I really thought hard about this question. I couldn't really, I found it hard to answer. I have kind of like a few cheap answers. A recent book I've really liked, because I'm a fan of, um, Professor Alex Edmonds, who I know you've had on your podcast. I like his recent book, Grow the Pie, so maybe some of your listeners would be interested in looking, looking that up.

Um, but you know, the more I thought about this, the more I thought it's less about the books, because like I said earlier, there's no real answers to stuff in the textbooks these days. Like, if I want to know what's the latest or how do I, you know, educate myself to know what the latest best practice is or what one can do with a portfolio company facing a particular challenge, there's no substitute for just doing the role.

But then I did think about, well, what books are good for is kind of almost the principles behind our challenges. And it made me go back to my kind of educational phase, my master's, and maybe a lot of people listening to this are too young to even know this book, but Silent Spring was a book published in the 60s.

Yeah, it has a lot of very interesting kind of commentary and insight that is easily applicable today. And I think just the concept of, do we know what we're doing and what are the impacts, you know, the planetary boundaries that we might be crossing. Do we really understand the impacts and the interconnectedness?

There's also elements in there around transparency, like some people knew, but they carried on. And that's very interesting from a climate change point of view, which is our biggest existential issue, because we have the science and we have the knowledge and we have the technology. What we don't have is the knowledge, the global political will, and it just reminded me a lot of Rachel Carson's book. So I wanted to make sure I mentioned that.

JENN: I am so glad that you mentioned Rachel Carson. It's also just such a, and you're the first person to do it by the way. I read it during my undergrad. You definitely were the first Rachel Carson, uh, uh, enthusiast. Um, and there's also something, just a quick build, cause I think it's a great answer. There's something quite personal and emotional I think about the sound of birds, you know, not waking up to the birds, not, you know, having, and it's small, but it's ever present. And what is life like when it's not there?

And obviously there's so many examples that we're talking about on a regular basis when it comes to biodiversity or changes in the climate.

SHAMI: Totally. So I think it's there for biodiversity and nature. Interestingly, I am a mum, I have children. When they start to talk to children about these issues through the books that they read, it starts with stories around what would it be like if we couldn't hear birds, if there were no, you know, so, so you're right, it's quite emotive, but yeah, no, I think that's a really powerful one for everyone that's not familiar with it to have a look at.

JENN: Shami, thank you so much for joining us on the Future in Sound. 

SHAMI: Thank you so much for having me. It's been a pleasure.

JENN: The Future in Sound podcast is written and hosted by Jenn Wilson. And produced by Chris Attaway. This podcast is brought to you by Re:Co, a tech powered advisory company, helping private market investors pursue sustainability objectives and value creation in tandem. If you enjoyed this podcast, don't forget to tell a friend about it.

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